S2E6: The Red Carnation Hotels Story - A Legacy of Luxury and Leadership
Listen to full episode :
Welcome to the world of luxury hospitality! Our host, Dan Christian sat down with Jonathan Raggett, the esteemed CEO of Red Carnation Hotels, for an engaging discussion on the world of luxury hospitality and the journey of this prestigious brand since 1995. Prepare to explore the core of Red Carnation Hotels' evolution, including the founding and instrumental roles of the Tollman family, understand the nuances of Jonathan's inspiring journey from school to the top rank at Red Carnation Hotels, and gain valuable perspectives on effective leadership, resilience, team spirit, his role as chairman of the Master Innholders Conference, and his observations on the future of hospitality and travel, including the rise in generational travel and increased length of stays post-pandemic.
Step into the world of Red Carnation Hotels as Jonathan provides an intriguing look into the brand's history and the pivotal contributions of the Tollman family. He candidly shares his own inspiring career trajectory within the company, from his early days to becoming CEO. The conversation delves into Jonathan's effective management style, emphasizing the trust he places in his managers, their shared competitive spirit, and the heartwarming appreciation within the team, particularly during the challenges of the pandemic. They also discuss Jonathan's role as chairman of the Master Innholders Conference and how he balances his demanding professional life with his family. Looking ahead, Jonathan shares his expert observations on the post-pandemic changes in the hospitality and travel industries, noting the increasing trend of generational travel and longer guest stays. The episode concludes with a fun Travel Trivia session, testing Jonathan's knowledge on topics ranging from the renowned Savoy Hotel to the popular Apple TV show, 'Ted Lasso'.
Curious to explore the inner workings of a leading luxury hotel brand and gain insights from its CEO?
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Connect with Our Guest: https://redcarnationhotels.com/
Speaker 1: 0:14
Hello everyone and welcome to our latest edition of Travel Trends. I'm Dan Christian and today I have a very special guest, someone I deeply admire and respect. His name is Jonathan Raggett and he is the CEO of Red Carnation Hotels. Jonathan, welcome, great to have you with us.
Speaker 2: 0:28
Thanks, dan. A real privilege and honor to be with you here today. Thank you Likewise likewise.
Speaker 1: 0:34
I really appreciate you making the time. I would love to start for those people who are listening to this who aren't familiar with Red Carnation Hotels. Do you mind just giving us a bit of their history and where their brand name came from, because I think that's also a very powerful story.
Speaker 2: 0:48
Sure. So Red Carnation Hotels began in 1995. It was launched by it's a family business, family run family, owned by the Tolman family, and they now, late Stanley Tolman, who's had the past almost two years ago built the company from scratch and the first hotel that he acquired was the Chesterfield Hotel in London, and I joined his empire and the Coval Corporation, which incorporates Red Carnation Hotels, a few years later, in 1998, and I had the privilege of working for him and with him to build Red Carnation Hotels up to 18 today, and it's a global company that has some amazing hotels in Southern Africa, in Geneva, an amazing castle in Ireland called Ashford Castle, hotels in the Chum Islands, and the pub of Red Carnation Hotels is based here in London. And so, yeah, we're thriving, we're doing well and I look forward on this pod, dan, to tell you what we're seeing in the world of hotel keeping and what's happening with Red Carnation Hotels.
Speaker 1: 2:06
That sounds great, Jonathan. Thanks for that context. Certainly, the Red Carnation name itself was inspired by Mr Tolman as well, who was were one in his lapel. That's exactly right. Very much a long story.
Speaker 2: 2:16
I didn't answer your question, which you answered me for, but you're right. So the name derived from the fact that Mr Stanley Tolman, from a very young age, always, always wore the Red Carnation in his jacket pocket and still always did Right up in the enter. And he's passing. You'd always find him out and about with the distinctive Carnation worn in the left lapel. That's right.
Speaker 1: 2:42
Yeah, well, he was a great man of hospitality, as are you, and that's why I was so keen for our conversation today. Now, the Travel Corporation, of course, just celebrated 103 years. I know how many of us were looking forward to 100 years, and I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the chairman, stanley Tolman, and Brett, of course, who I worked closely with for many years, and I should acknowledge, too, vicki Tolman, who you work closely with, as I understand, and someone that would see me at conferences and always come up and say very positive, reassuring remarks, and so a lovely individual as well. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the 103 year anniversary and the big celebration you have before we get into your story?
Speaker 2: 3:20
Well, as you say, it was a little sad that say it was three years later and it should have been, for reasons we all know. But it was an amazing celebration of a family who have had a business for now more than 100 years. And clearly the new chairman now is Mr Brett Tolman, who did an amazing job bringing more than 400 people together here in London to celebrate the event. People were flown in from the States, from Australia, from Asia. There was a real gathering of the key individuals and not just the senior management. There were people that had been loyal to the company, there were the heroes, there were the legends. They were the very best people that were brought to London for the amazing celebration which Brett was in charge of, again, being a family business.
Speaker 2: 4:05
There was Mr Gavin Tolman, there was Vicki Tolman, there was Tony Tolman all giving their support to these amazing years that have passed and there was a great look back on the achievements and where it happened and, obviously, going forward as well, because we're in a new world. Now things are different and how we remain relevant, how we stay to be the best and how I guess we're in business in yet another 100 years.
Speaker 1: 4:34
Absolutely. That's wonderful. I'm so glad everything went ahead and was such a success. I did speak to Natasha Lauren talking about Konziki, and she is someone that actually worked with you and started her career in Red Carnation Hotel. So a testament to the group and the many brands in the group. And of course, I have Mr Tolman's book in my office, still signed, and many of his stories remain inspirations to me and I apply them in a business in a number of different ways. And then Mrs Tolman, of course, her famous cookbook and many of the incredible meals that anyone can enjoy if they stay at a Red Carnation Hotel. So that's an incredible family story.
Speaker 1: 5:09
But today I want to talk about your story because actually I didn't realize that your journey also started in South Africa. Clearly you're not South African, but you did work there for a number of years when you started your career in hospitality. So I'd love to know the young master ragged. Tell me a little bit about him, because ever since I've known you, I know the legend. You've become today the CEO, managing director, the great manager, and so that's the Jonathan I came to know. But clearly you didn't start there. You made your way up in this business as well and you found your path and you had mentors along the way on your journey, so tell us how you got into hospitality in the first place.
Speaker 2: 5:47
Well, firstly, thank you for those very kind words. I'm not sure they're all deserved, but one thing for sure is I definitely worked very hard and I definitely care about absolutely everything I do. So, going back in time, I left school wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do, but I had friends that were a couple of years older than me, that were in the world of hospitality, and I liked the look of it. I liked food, I liked drink, I liked the big chandeliers, I liked the look of Fanta, ours. I was also a person that always had a fair amount of confidence and I just I liked the environment that I saw. So I think in my early years I wanted to play soccer as you call it, football as I call it and score winning goal in the World Cup. But I soon realized that actually that profession wasn't going to happen to me. I was then going to go into sports journalism because I love sport and have school. Certainly my written English was stronger than the mathematical side, but anyway, that was put to one side and I went into hospitality at the age of 18.
Speaker 2: 6:50
I did a degree in hotel management for three years and then in my early 20s, and then I just started from the very, very bottom. I got into a management program. I worked kitchens, I worked housekeeping, I worked every segment of the hotel and there's not these weird things. Actually, the more I got stuck into the hotel side of it, the more I enjoy it and I think, like many things in life, if you work hard and passionate, you give your very best. There's opportunities to grow and that certainly happened to me and during my 20s. I normally stay in a company for about two years because I believed in two years' time I'd been able to drain out all the good bits to what was happening in our hotel and I went to another hotel to get more opportunities. So from being on a management program, I got an assistant manager's role. I had a senior assistant manager's role up to a deputy general manager's role and then to general manager, and the opportunity you mentioned in Durban a few minutes ago came about when I was in London.
Speaker 2: 7:51
I was the hotel manager on Park Lane, a hotel that's now called the Metropolitan. It was the London area in those days on Park Lane, which a few people may know, next to the London Hilton, and I was there and I was young, I was free, I was single and I was about 30 years old and I was asked if I'd like to go to South Africa to run this 300 bedroom hotel in Durban, very much by a staff. It was nothing but a lose. It was a great opportunity. I went and did it and I was there for two, three years. You can actually come back to the UK afterwards for personal reasons. So yeah, that was the sort of earlier story of my life. And then I was actually working in the Channel Islands where again, we've got a couple of hotels today a resort property there and Mr and Mrs Tolman were guests of this hotel. They would come once or twice a year and they were very good guests.
Speaker 2: 8:47
They were guests that used to take the penthouse suede eating the fine dining room, and after several stays I was extremely happy at that hotel. I was doing great things. Mr Stanley Tolman said to me he was going to bring and make this fantastic group of hotels called Red Colation and he just acquired the Rubens Hotel on Buckingham Palace Road and how he was then going to build this hotel called 41 on top of it. He was then going to be buying hotels in South Africa. He was going to be buying hotels in Ashford and strangely although perhaps not so strangely, hopefully it more thought. His vision and his strategy going forward was always unique. And he said to me I'm going to get 20 hotels, jonathan, and if you do well for me, you'll be in charge of them. We'll work together and bye.
Speaker 2: 9:34
It was bizarre really, because I've never heard of the Red Car Nation, because it was only a couple of years old With respect to him.
Speaker 2: 9:40
I didn't know him, and so there was a bit of a leap of faith and I guess at the time half of what had happened had happened, it still would have been brilliant.
Speaker 2: 9:48
But actually, you know, it's double what I thought would happen has happened, and that it was the best thing ever and that I'm 25 years in now with this company, with the growth of what was three hotels when I joined out, to 18 today, and Um the time I had with mr Stanley tolman. Of course, mrs Tollman, who is the founder and president of red carnation hotels, is exceptional and I've learned an awful lot from them. I mean, they are hoteliers. Whilst mr Stanley tolman was always an entrepreneur and he built up this amazing travel corporation, his heart always lay in that hotel side of things. That's where he originally came from and in later years now we mentioned mr Brett tolman's now chairman again his love and passion he would, I think, tell anybody is the hotel side of things. That's what excites him and, of course, vicki tolman as well Now from the hotel. So I get a lot of support from a family run business that always want to do their very best, these very special hotels.
Speaker 1: 10:51
Not some remarkable story, and thanks for sharing that context. I think the other aspect I'd love to ask you about is your management style and how that has enabled you to attract, retain such a talented group of people. So you Clearly have a great affinity for the owners of the business, and for all the right reasons, of course, but you were also able to build team members that love working for you in much the same way and hold you in that highest regard. And I thought it would be worth touching on the pandemic, because the concept of this podcast, of course, came from, as travel comes back, telling people stories of their journey during that time. The people who really love this business are the ones that are still in this business, and so those people who are looking to get into this industry Clearly looking for guidance, are coming back to this industry.
Speaker 1: 11:42
And I think it's important to highlight the management team that you have around you, because I'm never, uh, not surprised at how dedicated, how passionate they are of running each of the hotels. So it's always stood out to me that you've been able to Build this incredible team around you as well. So maybe, if you wouldn't mind, touch a little bit on your management style and then just tell us how you navigated the pandemic, because as I understand it speaking to uh, to malcom, who runs the rubens Many of his team were living in the hotel during that time to keep the the water running and make sure the facilities were all working when you didn't have any guests. So tell us a bit about your management and how that led to you essentially being able to navigate that very difficult time and come out of it even stronger.
Speaker 2: 12:33
Sure Thanks. Well, I think in any business and hospitality to show that you're as good as your team, and the success of reclamation hotels has been many things, not least of all the family that care about the properties that I've already mentioned, but it's about having managers that each and every day get out of their bed. I want to do the very, very best for their properties in terms of their respective teams and, of course, the guests, and definitely one of my successes is being able to maintain great people in the reclamation properties and it is with great pride. I can report that Many of the managers worked alongside me now more than 20 years and most more than 10 years, and there's no real secret to that. I think very firm, I give good direction as to what is expected and we get on with it.
Speaker 2: 13:29
I do quarterly one-to-ones with my managers and I think again, this is key and certainly they respect that. So every quarter we get together and we review the objectives for the next 12 weeks. We look at back at the objectives we set previous and what we're going to do going forwards, and there's no ambiguity. They're quite clear on what I expect. I'm clear on what they expect and, I think, the greatest thing for any leader Is the execution, getting stuff done. So once I've got those objectives in place, I don't need to be bad, dream them every day or even every week as to what's going on. They know their job, which is to run the hotels, to look after their teams, our guests. But in addition to that, clearly this is what is expected, and I think again, a lot of businesses could take heed of that that you set these, you're clear with them and you don't have to be bad during people every few minutes as to what's going on, because there's a trust that that is then going to happen. So I think that that is one really important thing in leadership that, again, you just give those very clear instructions and you're open about it, and if you get the end of the 12 weeks, then it hasn't happened, it's not a disaster.
Speaker 2: 14:44
But I'm not expecting to get the end of the 12 weeks and learn about it. I'm going to learn after six weeks why it's not going to happen, because I think you've got to keep pressure on yourselves, and I am for one then, and I say With a little reluctance, but I am brutally competitive. I always, always want to win in business. I suppose I want to win in life, but my poor kids that are 20 and 21 never used to win any sporting event with me when they were small kids, and my wife is never very happy about it. But I just I am born to be competitive in everything that I do. So, um, I think that helps as well, because we all know that. You know, coming second in any race In anything we're doing in hotels isn't acceptable, so we put our own pressure on ourselves to make sure we get it right. I think tying into that.
Speaker 2: 15:31
We are a family business and during the pandemic which was just terrible, very brilliant of course, for the hotel world, it was a complete and utter right on the government's didn't allow us to open our hotels and recognition sits with some 3000 employees and there was this concern about you know when it was all going to come back and as managers, staff, our teams were saying when are we coming back to work? What's happening? And in business you nearly always know what the answers are, but we didn't know the answers to this. But again, with credit, huge credit, the tolman family we didn't make redundancies, we kept everybody employed at red carnation, which again gave a lot of satisfaction and Goodwill. There was some government help for most of the regions we're in, but nonetheless, the tolman family, the decision to pay the monies which was needed rather than redundancies.
Speaker 2: 16:23
Many, many hotel companies made A huge redundancies. We took the decision not to and again just jumping forwards when we did actually get to reopen. That was an amazing, successful strategy because we had these lower people still with us, but again, that was funded by the family to get us there and the managers were then key. They were the key. They were the ones getting their questions from our teams, just what to do, and there's a couple of stories, if I may, to share. Is that?
Speaker 2: 16:50
What gives me the greatest warmth is that the lockdown was March 2020, as we all know, and the kitchen at the Chesterfield Hotel had created 140 beautiful Easter eggs that we're going to be giving to our corporate clients that were coming to our hotels and we were going to thank you with the word happy Easter and we put the name on to the Easter egg, getting ourselves ready for their arrival. Well, of course, they never did arrive, so the general manager, a guy by the name of Adam Lake, took the decision to remove the names of the guests that would have got them and re-pipe onto the eggs the name that he's 140 staff on each egg. That was one thing to do. He then himself they had been breaking the law to but he didn't care because he cared more about his team got in his car and over three days he personally delivered an egg to each of his members of his team in his car to present to the people that should have been working. And again, when we talk about creating memories and we talk about being memorable, that will never escape the fact that he had the initiative to go and do that. I mean just an incredible thing to do.
Speaker 2: 18:06
Malcolm Henry, who's the Rubens hotel. He was doing similar. He was making, he was sending gestures, he was getting things through, he had his mobile phone to everybody. He was 24 seven. He was there really to speak to any of these team members and do anything he possibly could.
Speaker 2: 18:22
And, of course, dan, when the hotels were shut I'm talking London here, but we could be talking anywhere we still needed to keep them open in terms of making sure that we were flushing the lavatories every day, we were running the waters in the shower, we were churning the air conditioning on and we were keeping them safe. Our hotels are full of original artwork and antiques et cetera. So we even skeleton-starved to make sure that the hotels were functioning and were running. And again, every general manager you can just sit back they were going into the hotels, they were part of the skeleton, they were making sure everything was right. So we did find there was a lot of camaraderie, a lot of spirit going on despite the bad times, and I've no doubt in my mind we've come out of this even stronger than we were, having had to go through it.
Speaker 1: 19:06
Certainly it was clear when I saw the team members in London, and seeing yourself as well, that people were stronger for the experience and they actually spoke affectionately for what they went through and how, although challenging it was, as you said, they've come out stronger on the other side and I'd like to talk a bit more about that in a moment when it comes to what you're seeing now in the business as business comes back. But just before we segue into that, I wanted to talk about one other aspect you mentioned. You're competitive and you are a strong but fair leader, and one of the things that stood out to me that's really unique about Jonathan Ragged is that you clearly have the corporate success, you've got the career success, but you're incredibly well-rounded. Obviously you have a loving family beautiful wife, two great kids but you also are very active in the community. Beyond that, I know you cycle to work and you ran a marathon recently with your kids, and so that is wonderful to see and that's really what it's all about at the end of the day, as we both know. But you're also very active in the community and the one aspect that really stood out to me was the Master Inholders Conference. So here I was having a great respect for you inside the Travel Corporation business.
Speaker 1: 20:15
Not, I don't have a hospitality background, so I had little understanding of the types of organizations that exist Now. I was born in England so I had even a greater excitement and enthusiasm when I discovered what the Master Inholders actually was and the incredible history of this organization, of these key holders. It was like being invited into the Illuminati. It was like this secret organization that comes together and you invited me to speak at their conference, which was a great pleasure, and when I came to that conference I actually got an even better understanding of how respected you are in the industry which you were the chairman of that organization for a period of time you were running. It was your turn and you organized that conference. So tell everyone a little bit about what the Master Inholders Conference is and your role in that.
Speaker 2: 21:05
So the Master Inholders is quite a glamorous name but, in short, the Master Inholders are for hoteliers that have been a general manager for a minimum of five years and are willing to give back and promote this industry to younger people. And we have scholarships for younger people to go on, which are funded by the Master Inholders, and we hold this annual conference every year, which attracts 4,500 people, and I was the chairman of the Master Inholders. You have a two-year rating and you move on. I was also the conference chair for a year to organize this conference, and we need to find people that are going to inspire an audience of 400-plus general managers. So you were a star, dan.
Speaker 2: 21:52
There's no better man on stage than yourself and you gave an amazing presentation to the Master Inholders as to what it was about, and the monies that people paid to get there again fund these scholarships that I mentioned. So it's like-minded hoteliers that are willing to give back, and we do struggle and I'm going off east a little bit here, dan we do struggle to bring people into the hospitality industry, to bring people into the roles of waiting staff, reception, kitchen, et cetera. But for those that give it a chance, for those people that are interested and do get stuck in. It's an amazing business that really can para-shoot you very quickly into a senior management role and you go from there and you need limited education degree there.
Speaker 2: 22:34
I do have a hotel degree. Some does. But if you work hard, you understand people, you care, you're kind, you can do well. So the Master Inholders is all about supporting that and really trying to bring people from school, from colleges, to join this amazing business.
Speaker 1: 22:52
Terrific. I appreciate you sharing that, and I will look to include a few links for those people that are interested in getting into the hospitality industry, because certainly my intention with this, as I think you know, is to inspire people to come back to travel, as we were just talking about, and particularly I answered a question recently that many people trying to get into the travel industry. They often become travel agents, so they work in a contact center and they do work their way up. But, as you've pointed out, one of the best ways to get in this industry is hospitality and there's no shortage of hotels that people can get their start in and few people are as fortunate to be able to navigate the industry and find the right hotel, the right management style and excel, as you clearly have. But a good call to action for those of you who are listening to this and keen to get into this industry. But let's just talk about your family for a moment and I want to talk about the trends.
Speaker 1: 23:46
You've actually given me some terrific advice over the years.
Speaker 1: 23:48
I just want to actually acknowledge that, first and foremost, especially when we caught up last year, I saw you in person and it was so wonderful to see you again, but I told you at the time that all of a sudden, we've got teenagers now and it's completely changed, and you gave me some terrific advice about making sure that we set expectations with doing their homework.
Speaker 1: 24:07
This is no longer the time to be friends. This is the time to make sure that they get their schoolwork done and, essentially, really to be firm and clear on what the expectations are. And that's the path you'd take them with your kids, and they've now gone on to university, and so you'd been through that challenging thing. So just maybe just talk for a moment, if you wouldn't mind, with just how you've been able to navigate having such a wonderful family life along with such a successful career and being active in the community and obviously, taking care of your own health for that matter too. You're very fit, and I said you cycle to work every day, so it's your someone I admire, because you're firing on all cylinders as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2: 24:46
I'm sure you have your off days. None of us are perfect.
Speaker 1: 24:51
But how important does that play into it? Because clearly you travel. I mean, you've been in Botswana, I'm assuming. Hopefully you've taken your family on some of those trips. So how do you find that balance if you will?
Speaker 2: 25:00
Well, I think from the outset I probably need a shout out for my wife, who's tolerated that me being away. I mean a hotelier's life and I love what I do, so me being late to get home, missing various events, has been the norm, and whilst I've done my best as a father, I haven't missed key things in school where put on when they should have been there. But she always substituted for me, Because life is full of compromises and nothing is perfect. But I have given my life to hospitality and of course, I do love my family, but there is a balance there. I suppose if I could rewrite it slightly, I should have passed fallen a little bit more my family, but I found the right wife, so she compensated for me. But yeah, I think when you care about something and you enjoy something, you become immersed in it, and certainly in life. It's about finding a balance today and getting things right. And I don't know if I'm a good pair or bad, but you did mention it just now that I did run a marathon with my two children this year and I said to my son about a year out, I said I've done nine marathons, and he knew I'd done my marathons. I talk about it. I said I want to do 10. But I only do the 10th with you and your sister. So he said well, I'm interested in my daughters. I'm definitely not doing any bad as ridiculous, I don't run. So that was a year out. And then, six months in, my son said to me what was your fastest time of the nine marathons? I shared it with him and he said Dad, I'm going to smash that time. And I thought good, I hooked him. That's one of the kids.
Speaker 2: 26:40
And then, about two months to go, before the start of it, my daughter was still out of it. She didn't want to do it. I had a place for her. And then she came to me and she said Dad, so I'm going to run the marathon. I feel that's great news. And she said because I can't see. She said you go to your grade and we feel guilty. She showed a different way of it. So, anyway, it was an amazing thing that the three of us started on the start line together. I sat and ran up into the distance and finished long before I did, and then, after about 22 miles actually, my calf muscle gave way. So my daughter finished the last four or so miles on her own. I limped across the line. I did get to the end. It was really embarrassing not to be, so it was all the right ordering that I came third if we were racing one another for it. And the really good news to share with you down which is the best pair of the news is that my son did not leave my record time, so I'm still going to have to tell him I'm back, but I do try and keep fit.
Speaker 2: 27:36
I think life today, today in business I mean, I'm old enough that emails and social media et cetera, wasn't around. When I first came into this business, it was letters that you'd arrive and you'd always delay a day or two by saying it hadn't arrived. We all know that today, and emails looked upon as being a telephone call, People are wanting instant responses. We all know social media needs instant responses. So it's become 24-7, and it is draining and one does need to find some kind of balance. I'm still guilty that my phone does all my life too much. I need to become better at that. But again, it is a business where you want to be on top of things. So I think finding that work-life balance is really important and there are a couple of things that I do.
Speaker 2: 28:22
I do cycle a lot and again, without wishing to be too conceited or be headed on this podcast, I was really proud of something I did. Last year. I decided that I wanted to do a charity ride and I lost a dear girlfriend of the many years but I was in my 20s to Laquemia, so Laquemia has always been a charity very close to my heart because of the sad passing of her. So last year I, along with 18 riders, rode the entire Tour de France, all 21 stages we rode together and, more importantly, we made more than one million pounds sterling for that charity et cetera. So again I'm trying to say the world life balance. That was a real distraction from all the things that happened. That focused my mind to get that done and I think that was a really good thing.
Speaker 1: 29:10
And.
Speaker 2: 29:11
I don't meditate. People say it's good to meditate, but I suppose in the way I do meditate, because when I go into a couple of hours on my bicycle, it's my time, it's my time thinking, et cetera. So I would say to anybody listening that I work really hard, I love what I do. It's not really working many ways, because I love what it is, but I think it is important to get time away and to come in and be fresh and motivated with it. And I think again, if one's got to look after one's health, if I'm going to be successful, if I want to carry on working for more years, which I definitely do you've got to be in good health. You've also got to be a stage in life where you can also adapt to change. Because one of the reasons I also enjoy my job so much is that I employ lots of young people in their 20s who are very bright, who are very able, who are very talented. But very different to when I was a 20 year old, when I came into this business and I was interviewed for the management program I was doing, I would never, ever have dared ask the type of questions that a younger person would today. An example of that is what's in it for me. I mean, if I come and work for Red Car Nation, what will I be getting out of it? And a good question. I mean it is about making sure we advance these people. And if you're going to be successful today, it's all about making sure that you also satisfy the needs of that individual, because the confidence and talent I believe these people have today is greater than what I had. And the other thing I might just add this to Dan is that when we look to employ people today we're finding in all countries but I use London here as the base people actually for the most part aren't looking for a full-time job, they're looking for 40 hours. People are looking to do times when they want to work. So if I want to work in the restaurant, the kitchen or any part of the hotel, I'd like to work three days a week. That's what I want to work. Now they only pay for three days, so obviously they're funding their money as elsewhere.
Speaker 2: 31:03
But again, we just have to do a position to adapt to that. I'd rather have somebody do five days because it's easier for my rosters. I've got to run the hotels, but I want to find the best talent. What are the best people working in red carnation? I've got to listen to what's out there. So we now have more people employing red carnation ever before, but that's because the people aren't doing the five-day 40 hours. There's people doing 15, 20 hours. So there's been a real change in the workforce. So I've got great people. But it puts more stress on my managers because you've got to have the rosters. You've got more uniforms, different people, you've got to have more lockers and the whole thing becomes more complex. But again, we're winners and we make that happen.
Speaker 1: 31:44
Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing such a personal story too, both of your family and then, as you were highlighting there, some of the changes in behavior that I want to get into now. But the one last thing on that topic clearly you're like father, like son, your son's very competitive, and but the one other thing that stood out to me with yourself and your leadership is that you really do adapt to change, and you know Mrs Tolman used to write handwritten letters to all the guests. If she ever got feedback, she would make the effort to write back to them, and so you have been able to.
Speaker 1: 32:18
As you highlighted where your career started, you were very adept at social media, and we don't need to talk about social media today, but it's just one example of how communications change, and you've made sure that you are very active, very out front, leading by example and really excelling in that capacity.
Speaker 1: 32:33
And you could probably do you could definitely do a webinar for everyone in the hospitality industry about how to successfully use social media.
Speaker 1: 32:40
But that's just one aspect of you, and I think that's coming across to everyone who's listening to this today and knows now just how much I look forward to seeing you in person, so, and it's wonderful to hear an English person speak so passionately about their experiences, because that is not a trait that and so, but it's important because you have so many great stories and examples to share. So thank you. Thank you for that, jonathan, but let's talk about how the industry's changed and what you're seeing now. As travelers are coming back into the Red Car Nation hotels and you know your capacity is overwhelmed, especially American travelers traveling to London and Europe this summer what have you seen that's changed in people's behavior? I know sustainability is important for you and for the business, so certainly that could be one aspect, but I'm keen to hear what you have seen in terms of consumer changes, since we haven't talked about that just yet. I'm very keen to get your insights, particularly in the hospitality world, of how, what's changed, what's remained the same.
Speaker 2: 33:45
Well, I think last year there was a word which you know you know a well-known called revenge travel. So we really did see huge numbers of people pouring into all locations of the world to get out there and to get what they'd been missing through the two years of not being able to do what they wanted to do. But it's really just continued, and if I look around the globe for hotels I'm responsible for, we've never, ever been busier. The US business is responsible for a huge number of guests we have in South Africa, here in London and in Ireland as well, which, again, is the far biggest market. So the American leisure market has really come back bigger and better than I ever could have imagined. And what we're finding, then, as my peers and all companies are now in the hotel world, is that we're seeing much more generational travel. We're seeing people come with their grandchildren, children, grandparents. We're seeing groups of 10, 12 people wanting to come and stay in their hotels and enjoy experiences together, which, of course, we used to get a bit of it. But there's much more there now, and I think it's again the hangover of not being able to do it and people really not knowing whether maybe in a year's time, something else may happen. It's enjoying that moment, having that chance to spend real quality time together. So if I look at this summer, now that we're in, there are so many of these generational large bookings that are coming through.
Speaker 2: 35:20
We're finding it's not a new word, this, and I'm sure many listeners will have heard it before but this real thing called leisure. So we've got people mixing the business and leisure, because what we've now found too, of course, is that a lot of people in their business can be anywhere in the world and continue. So if a couple were coming for a two or three day stay in one of our hotels, that often turns into five, six, seven days. Now it's elongated because the people staying can have their holiday and their leisure and do what they want to do, but with laptops and teams and zoom and all these great things that are there now, they'll continue their work. So we've had to make sure that our Wi-Fi is better than ever, because clearly people want to work and there's a bit more work space as well for people to be able to do that work space within our hotels.
Speaker 2: 36:12
The corporate business hasn't come back because I think the Zoom again and Teams etc. Has kept some of that away, but it's been more than that. The business we've lost from the corporate world has been more than made up for in the whole major side of things. So we're finding the average length of stay now has gone from 2.2 nights in 2019 to very close to four nights being the average, and again for reasons to explain, which is great on all counts because clearly, once you get a guest into your hotel, it's harder operationally to have a guest stay one night and you get one night. If it's a longer stay, it makes it better. It also gives us a chance to get a report and we're coming to this business because we like people, we like to build up a relationship that I guess we like to show them all the things we've got. So it gives us that chance as well and we're finding these people almost appreciating things more than ever.
Speaker 2: 37:07
I mean, certainly people know what they want, and rightly so, because every hotel, not just recarnation, has significantly put their prices up since 2019. Food inflation is running well above 20% here in the UK, as it is elsewhere. Utility bills are horrific Oil, gas, electricity, again around the globe, for reasons we all know and there's no stopping pay rises now the payroll and encouraging people back up. So we've had to put those prices in the business onto the customer, but at the moment there's no signs of people turning their backs on it. We offer value, we offer great service because, again, that's what's needed. But if you just said to me a year ago 18 months ago we reopened that we were going to be as busy as we are today in all of our hotels, I honestly would not have believed you. We are enjoying times. I mean, I've been in this business now for more than 40 years. We've never, ever, been busier right now. It's phenomenal and, with fingers crossed, long may that continue.
Speaker 1: 38:09
And I think to continue down.
Speaker 2: 38:10
You know, it's very obvious, you've got to be good at what you do, you've got to care what you do. You know, the great businesses, great products, will always be busy if you give in, guess what they want. So again, we mustn't make complacent, we mustn't think, oh, I'm a great hotelier because I'm busy. We must keep asking the question as to why we're busy. And I always say and this is one of the things again from Mrs Tolman, our founder and president we learn from our guests. It's about listening to what the guests tell you and what they want and then acting on it. And I think that combination of motivated people that work in the teams listening to our guests is the recipe for success.
Speaker 1: 38:48
Fascinating, jonathan. There's so much there. Generational travelers you highlighted as a main trend coming out of the pandemic, which clearly people spending time with their families and actually wanting to travel with them on the other side of it and lengthening their stays. Less corporate travel there's certainly points to a change in human behavior. There People are taking more time and people are valuing travel like they've never done before, which is clear given that they weren't able to. Is there any other elements that you see that will shape the future of travel, especially with hospitality? Because clearly there was a concern for a while that Airbnb and these short term accommodation options were going to, and I remember people asking you those questions at the time with is it affecting your hotel business? And clearly the answer is no, because your hotels are at capacity. But what else do you think as far as looking forward? You've got so many great properties around the world. That's obviously a great opportunity to promote the whole collection, but how else do you see the future of hospitality?
Speaker 2: 39:47
Well, the future actually is very much your domain as I see it. And that's the whole AI side of things, because people say does that affect hospitality business? And by Joe, we better believe it, it's going to change things in a huge way. I think we're slightly behind the curve here at Red Car Nation because some hotel groups are already doing this, but I think the idea now of being able to check in now, before you arrive in fact you don't have to go to reception desk, you can arrive, be met if you want to speak to somebody, otherwise go straight to your room my guest said to me the other day I don't know if I like this or not, but I definitely listened to it, which is what I was saying just now and they said to me Jonathan, you know what the definition of luxury is to me?
Speaker 2: 40:32
So I said well, I don't know what luxury means to you, but share with me. He said the luxury, he says, is not having to speak to anybody. And I thought about that and he wanted to order his hamburger and his fries and his beer without speaking to anyone.
Speaker 2: 40:47
He said Jonathan, I spend my day speaking to people, I'm doing it all day. When I get back to my hotel room, I just don't want to be asked how my day was. I don't want to talk about the burger, I just want to be able to order it and for it to arrive. And that actually struck a call with me. Now that actually luxury hint, actually not interacting with what I always thought was the most important thing, which was our people, and I think that is important. I think a lot of people want it. But again, I do think the AI side of things about being able to do things now without people and for it to happen and for it to work, is really important. And certainly the messaging side of things, now that where, again, I don't want to talk to somebody, I'm just messaging it and I'll get what I want. I need my iPhone charger. The iPhone charger will arrive within a few minutes because I've asked for it. So I think you know that's certainly one of the changes that's coming.
Speaker 2: 41:36
I do think in this business that when you go to the bar and you want your favorite delicious cocktail or your glass of wine, I think that interaction with a member of staff who has a passion for drinks will always exist. But I do think in the future in the hotel world, hotel teams will shrink and I think it will change the roles that they do, because a lot of things will be done for them. I do long, though, dan. I do long for the day that we can find some fantastic robots to clean bedrooms, because around the world that's still a struggle to find people that actually want to do that, but that might be more years that I've got.
Speaker 2: 42:13
But yeah, I see that as a change, and for the good. And again it will be brands, dan, that don't react to that. I think, oh, you don't need that, that will fail. So again, I'm changing myself, I'm looking, I'm saying I never want to be the first to go out and do it. I guess that's because we're quite small and there are some bigger hotel companies out there that can make mistakes. But I don't hang on too long If I see things that are working and we need to be doing it and my guests are telling us we need to be doing it. It's often a bit late if they're telling me is the way we're doing that as a company.
Speaker 1: 42:43
Well, there's a great story that you and I are familiar with that I'm going to quickly share now, and then we'll get into the quiz and then I'm going to give you the last word, jonathan. But when you mention AI and one of the questions I asked you is what has changed and what remains the same in human behavior? Because there's always an ebb and a flow there and certain characteristics of human nature that are innate that remain true in terms of the desire for connection, and Mr Tolman used to tell this story at the beginning of many brand meetings. I enjoyed it every time. I had the pleasure to hear it and he would talk about how he, when he opened his first hotel, him and his wife, mrs Tolman, beatrice, who was running the kitchen.
Speaker 1: 43:23
He was running the front of the restaurant and they had their opening night and there was two guests that came into the restaurant and they were having dinner and he spent so much time and effort building out this restaurant and getting this place ready for their opening night and it was quiet, two people eating the restaurant. He went upstairs and he looked across the street at a restaurant that was lined up around the corner and, as he said, he was feeling somewhat sorry for himself and his dad came up and said what are you doing up here? And he explained that I'm looking at the restaurant across the street trying to figure out what is it that they're doing that I'm not. And he said, son, go downstairs and stand next to those two customers, give them the best service they've ever had. And the next night you'll have four. Do it again. The next night you'll have eight.
Speaker 1: 44:07
And what was remarkable about that story? And I get certain senses, I'm sharing it now because it's not really my place to share that story, but I just thought I would convey that because I found it so powerful quite simply because it is about the power of human connection, and it's also about not focusing on the competition. So many people came into those meetings ready to tell him what everyone else was doing, and that's not what he wanted to hear, because that's not what his dad expected of him. And so it's remarkable, the consistency in what his journey and what we saw in business repeating itself. And so your example there of let's let AI, let's do some of the tasks that humans are probably not as well suited to, but in terms of that human connection, clearly that's where you excel, that's where your team excels, and that will still be part of the future of the great hospitality business.
Speaker 1: 44:56
So thank you. This has been a wonderful conversation, but let's do some trivia, if you won't mind. Is there anything else you want to add to that, jonathan, because obviously that's a quite poignant story for both of us. Is there anything that you wanted to highlight there?
Speaker 2: 45:09
No, I think the stories have been told what I will say, because I have no shame in what I say or what I do. But if anyone ever does want to come and experience Red Carnation Hotel, go to the Red Carnation website. Jonathan at RCH Menets on our website, red Carnation. Come to me directly. I'll make sure you get an upgrade or we'll give you breakfast or something extra. So sorry for that little plug, but I'm very happy to do that, I'm very pleased to know if you'll pass that.
Speaker 1: 45:34
Terrific. Thank you, and everyone will appreciate that.
Speaker 2: 45:36
You might take that thing out, though I'm a little worried.
Speaker 1: 45:40
Now we're going to add a Jonathan Raga promo code after All. Right, let's hit the trivia questions.
Speaker 2: 45:47
I'm ready. I'm ready.
Speaker 1: 45:49
All right, because I really wanted to customize these for you, given your background and experience and everything Everyone's heard from this discussion today. So question number one the Savoy Hotel, which isn't that far away, of course, from where you are now. It opened in 1889 and it introduced a number of hotel firsts. Can you name just one of them?
Speaker 2: 46:11
Fine dining. Can you name another? They got a car, they got a roundabout that goes the wrong way. No, I'll ask you a question, okay, no, that's all right. The Zach, our producer, is the chairman.
Speaker 1: 46:30
No, no, no no, all right, they were the first to have electric lights, they were the first to introduce elevators, they were the first to have an elevator in London, they were the first to have en suite bathrooms and they were going to refer to as the first grand hotel of London, which clearly red carnation is now, but nevertheless the Savoy Hotel.
Speaker 2: 46:50
Sorry to stump you on the question. You know what I didn't know that, dan, is because Mr Tolman, my boss, always told me not to worry about what other people would do. He focused on what I was doing. You're right.
Speaker 1: 47:01
That was a trick question. The first one was a trick question. Well, you're going to enjoy the second one then too, because it's it is about the competition. How many competitors do you actually have in London? I'm going to give you three options here. So how many hotels are in London? Is it 250?, Is it 500? Or is it over a thousand?
Speaker 2: 47:21
Over a thousand.
Speaker 1: 47:22
Well done. There you go, you're back on track now. Yeah, there's 1124 approximately hotels in London, of which about 770 of them are independent hotels, which I find remarkable that that many have remained independent, and so, given everything is dominated by the big chains these days. So there you go, you're back on track now. One last one on London, and then we'll shift into some of your other interests. London is home to several royal residences. Can you name two of them?
Speaker 2: 47:58
Was. Kensington Palace yes, and Buckingham Palace. There you go, perfect Kensington Palace is right next to the milestone hotel and the Rubens Hotel is next to Buckingham Palace. So good job, I like that.
Speaker 1: 48:13
Yeah, there you go, two out of three. The Tour de France, which you mentioned on your journey, of course, the story of your girlfriend, leukemia, and your commitment to making that ride and raising money, which is astounding that you've raised over a million pounds. But just so everyone has a sense, it's certainly one of the most prestigious races in the world Three weeks, of course, 21 days. What is the distance that the Tour de France covers over that time?
Speaker 2: 48:39
So the one I did in 2022 last year was 3,500 kilometers but over 50 meters of elevation.
Speaker 1: 48:50
Wow, unbelievable.
Speaker 2: 48:53
It just started down, because what I did, I did a week before the pros and I know this will go afterwards. But, as we hear today, the Tour starts this weekend, so the next cohorts, or class of 2022, just started the journey of this year's Tour. They're following this year's Tour and on social media I'm watching Tour 21. I'm seeing the pain these guys are going through and people are saying to me are you a bit jealous, are you a bit sad that you're not involved in it? And yes, there's a little bit of foam going on.
Speaker 1: 49:26
I'm keen to see if you're familiar with this show. This is something you and I haven't covered, so we'll see if Apple TV, which I know not everybody has, especially in the UK, as I discovered but there's a particular show on Apple TV that's about a fictitious English soccer coach who was previously the coach of an American football club. What is the name of that show?
Speaker 2: 49:48
Well, it's funny, you should ask me this question because I haven't got Apple TV. But everybody said to me, jonathan, you live in Richmond and you support West Ham United. So about two weeks ago I subscribed to Apple Pay because I can get it for a month and get rid of it. I've been binge watching it for the last two weeks. So the answer to that question, dan, is Mr Ted Laszko.
Speaker 1: 50:13
Well done, jonathan. I so wanted to ask you that question and I am so glad that you just discovered it and you've been watching it. So I'm going to give you a chance now to redeem yourself, and myself too, for that matter, with the first question, because, knowing that you are a West Ham United fan and that plays into season three for those people who've watched the show, but the name the Hammers, so West Ham United, like question, the bonus question to make it a solid five out of five, which, again, knowing you're competitive, you would expect nothing less what's the nickname of the club? And then, where does the name actually come from?
Speaker 2: 50:51
Okay, so the Hammers is the nickname, but they were known as the Irons. The Irons Thames Irons' works many years ago. It was formed in 1895. That's where it originated from in the East end of London, and the club has developed. So it's a nickname now of the Irons and they're Hammers and you get the Cross Hammers side, which is the football team.
Speaker 2: 51:14
So, yes, that's who we are. And you haven't mentioned the fact we won a trophy for the first time in 43 years the other day, dan. So, yeah, so a couple of things very quickly here to finish off with the love, support of this team for my entire life and the last time we won any silverware was in 1980, which is some 43 years ago and I'm so, so chuffed that we made a final of a European competition this year. I'm even more chuffed that my 21-year-old son, who's had the pain and suffering because he was forced to go to the West Ham United. He and I had the opportunity to go to Prague where the final was, and, even happier to say, we actually be an Italian team to win the European Cup competition. So lots and lots of joy.
Speaker 1: 52:00
Awesome, that's so great. It was nice to see you and your family there recently for that big victory.
Speaker 1: 52:07
And Jonathan, five out of five, because you're absolutely right that the name pays homage to the iron workers that were involved in the shipbuilding industry. So it's a fascinating bit of history about English soccer was that most during the Industrial Revolution is when most of those teams came about and it was the case that people worked six day weeks. Then I know you still do and went to church on Sunday and they started letting workers have a half day on Saturday so they go to football match, have a drink and get everything out of their system so they would be ready to go back into the factory the following week. So there's such an interesting history and connection there that you can see in the society work and sport, and you and I both see that anytime you go and see a match, the die hard supporters. It's remarkable.
Speaker 1: 52:53
But thank you, jonathan, for taking the time to do this. I just want to say one thing, and then I'll give you the final word, and that is that I greatly value our friendship, your continued support, the fact you're willing to make the time for this and also make the time for me whenever I come across, because I highly value our relationship. I hugely respect you. I've learned so much from you and continue to and look forward to seeing you lead this great business and have success in the industry and continuing to keep in touch with you. So thank you so much for making the time for this.
Speaker 1: 53:26
And one very final thing just to say, since you know my personal story as well, but after my dad passed away, I was cleaning out his office in the house and he had a number of milestone. He had a notebook envelopes I had been able to, thanks to you. He came across to England to go visit some of our family. He had a night in the milestone, which was the last place that our executive team were when the pandemic started, because we were there for a meeting that day, as you recall. And so when he had an opportunity to not only stay there for a night, but he had an opportunity to do afternoon tea, both were really huge highlights for him and it was just wonderful to see that he got a glimpse into the culture and the conversation that we've had today and that he clearly resonated with him so much that he surrounded his desk with elements from the milestone. And so thank you again for that and on that note, I'll leave you the final word, please, jonathan. Okay, well.
Speaker 2: 54:27
I'd like to sort of go right back to you on those wonderful kind words you gave about myself. As I said at the start, it's a privilege to have had an opportunity to come onto your podcast and I was also a little saddened some years back when you took the decision to leave the Travel Corporation. You were definitely an executive, but I learned so much on your name within the ranks was known as Digital Dan. There was nothing digital that you didn't know. I learned huge amounts from you and, as you mentioned, you came and were a key speaker at numerous events and I said to you once because during the TTC days, as you know, for the conferences we had, you always put up a stage for the majority of the time with your different presentations and I said to you you are a remarkable speaker. I said you were born to be on the stage and you always showed great humility and said well, I don't know about that, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2: 55:22
So I asked you a few of the secrets to how you did it and actually there were no secrets. You had little sleep, you rehearsed, you practiced, you rehearsed, you practiced and you just made sure that it was right for the occasion and I think that was also a good lesson that I got in life that if you want to win, if you want to be the best, don't wing it, Don't leave it to the last minute. Know your content, Know what you're going to do and then execute it. And I think we both have that trait. If we're going to do something, we're going to do it well, we're going to make sure, again, that we'll win us to do it. So I think, whilst we do different jobs and we've got different skill sets, you know QoS for you. I learned loads from you. You still learn loads from you. Let's stay in touch and maybe one day I'll get back onto this podcast to do a part too. But again, a massive thank you to you, Thanks for the friendship and look forward to seeing you very soon. Thanks, Dan.
Speaker 1: 56:17
It's an honor. Thank you kindly, Jonathan. I'll leave those with those last words for everyone. Thanks a lot for joining this episode. Hope you really enjoy the conversation with Jonathan and we'll look forward to having you on the next episode of Travel Trends. Thank you so much.
